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Post by justin1023 on Sept 28, 2016 15:27:54 GMT
No quite a first draft, but certainly not a final draft. Not looking for anything specific here and I hope no one feels obligated to read this thing. But if you want to, this is the entire manuscript - all 305 pages. Quick synopsis: Set in 1930s Arizona and Mexico, the story follows Abel McGrath, the middle son of a bootlegging crime family. His family operates on the ranch they purchased from Esteban Cortez and Aná Cortez, and Aná happens to be his wife. Abel expects prohibition to end soon, and he is striking under the table deals with politicians to make the ranch the only game in town when it comes to legal booze. But his plans are destroyed when he is beaten nearly to death by Esteban and his wife is killed. When Abel recovers, he sets out to figure out what happened to his wife and exact revenge on Esteban and anyone else he feels might be responsible. Attachments:TheRanch.pdf (633 KB)
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Julia
New Member
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Post by Julia on Sept 29, 2016 12:01:09 GMT
Congrats! I will read it in the new few weeks
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Post by Charlie Allison on Oct 13, 2016 2:15:49 GMT
No quite a first draft, but certainly not a final draft. Not looking for anything specific here and I hope no one feels obligated to read this thing. But if you want to, this is the entire manuscript - all 305 pages. Quick synopsis: Set in 1930s Arizona and Mexico, the story follows Abel McGrath, the middle son of a bootlegging crime family. His family operates on the ranch they purchased from Esteban Cortez and Aná Cortez, and Aná happens to be his wife. Abel expects prohibition to end soon, and he is striking under the table deals with politicians to make the ranch the only game in town when it comes to legal booze. But his plans are destroyed when he is beaten nearly to death by Esteban and his wife is killed. When Abel recovers, he sets out to figure out what happened to his wife and exact revenge on Esteban and anyone else he feels might be responsible. Justin, Just finished reading the Ranch. I'm blown away. It's a quick read (not a slam on it, just that mininmalistic works tend to go by faster than non-minimalistic ones) and unfolds logically. Here are some of my initial thoughts on structure: Back-half of the story seemed a bit more intensely violent than the front half: This is to be SOMEWHAT expected given the structure of the story--it's the slow build. Even still, with the narrative logic of momentum, even lampshaded by Abel of if they don't act before word gets out, the advantage of surprise will be lost. Even still, there is a whole hell of a lot going on in the last half--and to your credit the majority of it is foreshadowed quite well. I would consider removing at least one major character death, or restructuring it--Does Bingman have to die the way he does? I don't mind the particulars--but narratively, throwing your protagonists into danger before they are engaged with their goal (again, this isn't a major issue, just something i'm musing about on the forums) decreases rather than increases tension. Perhaps Hall's men show up a bit later and there is a misunderstanding between Abel and Esteban as to their purpose? Or the dynamic duo stumbles across the aftermath of an attempted assault on the farm--hinted at? Either way, this isn't a major complaint and the story works fine with it. Just something to toy with, alternate scenarios...How would, out of curiousity, a newly ascendant Abel deal with a hardliner like Bingman assuming he didn't die that night, but still gave his information? that could make his character more compelling and fuel speculation that he keeps the lawman alive out of respect and sentimentality? That's largely the lynchpin of his and Esteban's friendship, outside of the Fire-forged Friends trope--Ana is their connection. Perhaps Abel wants to keep as many reminders as possible of that old world alive, even if they were annoying to him...even as he tells himself he's moved on. This is disorganized, and I'm sorry, I'm spitballing here--little webs that you've already eclipsed. Esteban and Circles I loved the insight that Esteban had: the systems he worked for, the drugs and the criminal life can only be broken from from the outside of their circular logic. I think that this revelation would hit harder if you foreshadowed a circle-theme into Esteban's chapters. Like when he's drunk he always paces in a widening circle--or he thinks similar thoughts about how the circle of working for the mostly-ungrateful-McGraths necessitates drinking, which necessitates covering his ass etc. My point is, if you weave the circle motif through esteban's consciousness, it will feel more logical as a metaphor at the end of the novel, you follow? Braden--I kind of feel like this character got the short end of the stick in canon. He's smart, but not smart as Abel. He's violent, but doesn't truly revel in butchery and rape like (ha) Charlie. A way to make him feel as much a victim (prisoner?) as Abel. He's not blameless, he just wants some acknowledgment--from Finnegan, from Abel, from anyone. He's already the 'face' of the two brothers--and thusly has more pressure on him. Show it a little--we know he's gonna get whats coming to him, but there isn't any reason we can't feel, just a little bit, bad for him. Not Charlie though. Fuck that guy. Finnegan McGrath I'm on the fence about this character. I don't mind him, and he's well written enough. I just think that more could have been done with his character--or less. He's an old man, past his prime, but his attempt to Hannibal Lecture a son who (spoilers) is clearly all aboard the Murder Train Express, first stop: his face. I like the metaphor of his character, that someone now longer directly involved in crime physically can still wield outsized power. In short, he is more powerful the less he is on screen. Thusly, his final scene seems long to me. Consider cutting his dialogue down a bit--if only because it helps him retain his aura of mystery. If his last words are enigmatic, they will haunt Abel more than they already do. These are my initial thoughts--I hope they're helpful, and we'll definitely talk more! Great novel, great first draft! Charlie (not the one in your novel) |
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Post by justin1023 on Oct 13, 2016 14:09:09 GMT
No quite a first draft, but certainly not a final draft. Not looking for anything specific here and I hope no one feels obligated to read this thing. But if you want to, this is the entire manuscript - all 305 pages. Quick synopsis: Set in 1930s Arizona and Mexico, the story follows Abel McGrath, the middle son of a bootlegging crime family. His family operates on the ranch they purchased from Esteban Cortez and Aná Cortez, and Aná happens to be his wife. Abel expects prohibition to end soon, and he is striking under the table deals with politicians to make the ranch the only game in town when it comes to legal booze. But his plans are destroyed when he is beaten nearly to death by Esteban and his wife is killed. When Abel recovers, he sets out to figure out what happened to his wife and exact revenge on Esteban and anyone else he feels might be responsible. Justin, Just finished reading the Ranch. I'm blown away. It's a quick read (not a slam on it, just that mininmalistic works tend to go by faster than non-minimalistic ones) and unfolds logically. Here are some of my initial thoughts on structure: Back-half of the story seemed a bit more intensely violent than the front half: This is to be SOMEWHAT expected given the structure of the story--it's the slow build. Even still, with the narrative logic of momentum, even lampshaded by Abel of if they don't act before word gets out, the advantage of surprise will be lost. Even still, there is a whole hell of a lot going on in the last half--and to your credit the majority of it is foreshadowed quite well. I would consider removing at least one major character death, or restructuring it--Does Bingman have to die the way he does? I don't mind the particulars--but narratively, throwing your protagonists into danger before they are engaged with their goal (again, this isn't a major issue, just something i'm musing about on the forums) decreases rather than increases tension. Perhaps Hall's men show up a bit later and there is a misunderstanding between Abel and Esteban as to their purpose? Or the dynamic duo stumbles across the aftermath of an attempted assault on the farm--hinted at? Either way, this isn't a major complaint and the story works fine with it. Just something to toy with, alternate scenarios...How would, out of curiousity, a newly ascendant Abel deal with a hardliner like Bingman assuming he didn't die that night, but still gave his information? that could make his character more compelling and fuel speculation that he keeps the lawman alive out of respect and sentimentality? That's largely the lynchpin of his and Esteban's friendship, outside of the Fire-forged Friends trope--Ana is their connection. Perhaps Abel wants to keep as many reminders as possible of that old world alive, even if they were annoying to him...even as he tells himself he's moved on. This is disorganized, and I'm sorry, I'm spitballing here--little webs that you've already eclipsed. Esteban and Circles I loved the insight that Esteban had: the systems he worked for, the drugs and the criminal life can only be broken from from the outside of their circular logic. I think that this revelation would hit harder if you foreshadowed a circle-theme into Esteban's chapters. Like when he's drunk he always paces in a widening circle--or he thinks similar thoughts about how the circle of working for the mostly-ungrateful-McGraths necessitates drinking, which necessitates covering his ass etc. My point is, if you weave the circle motif through esteban's consciousness, it will feel more logical as a metaphor at the end of the novel, you follow? Braden--I kind of feel like this character got the short end of the stick in canon. He's smart, but not smart as Abel. He's violent, but doesn't truly revel in butchery and rape like (ha) Charlie. A way to make him feel as much a victim (prisoner?) as Abel. He's not blameless, he just wants some acknowledgment--from Finnegan, from Abel, from anyone. He's already the 'face' of the two brothers--and thusly has more pressure on him. Show it a little--we know he's gonna get whats coming to him, but there isn't any reason we can't feel, just a little bit, bad for him. Not Charlie though. Fuck that guy. Finnegan McGrath I'm on the fence about this character. I don't mind him, and he's well written enough. I just think that more could have been done with his character--or less. He's an old man, past his prime, but his attempt to Hannibal Lecture a son who (spoilers) is clearly all aboard the Murder Train Express, first stop: his face. I like the metaphor of his character, that someone now longer directly involved in crime physically can still wield outsized power. In short, he is more powerful the less he is on screen. Thusly, his final scene seems long to me. Consider cutting his dialogue down a bit--if only because it helps him retain his aura of mystery. If his last words are enigmatic, they will haunt Abel more than they already do. These are my initial thoughts--I hope they're helpful, and we'll definitely talk more! Great novel, great first draft! Charlie (not the one in your novel) Charlie, you are the man, and you have proven once again that you are not the same Charlie as the one portrayed in my novel  Seriously, this is all so helpful. Thanks a ton! |
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Post by eldercheese on Mar 3, 2017 21:57:42 GMT
I just finished the Ranch. Well I finished it yesterday. I'm digesting it now but I have to agree with charlie for my money Esteban was the show steeler I'm working up my thoughts on it but I will say that after Ana's death the story really shoots off the ground fast. |
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Post by justin1023 on Mar 4, 2017 2:11:07 GMT
I just finished the Ranch. Well I finished it yesterday. I'm digesting it now but I have to agree with charlie for my money Esteban was the show steeler I'm working up my thoughts on it but I will say that after Ana's death the story really shoots off the ground fast. Man, Eliot. You're my new hero for reading through this whole thing. Can't tell you how appreciative I am. Congrats by the way on Trap's publication! |
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Post by eldercheese on Mar 4, 2017 19:49:20 GMT
Thanks man now to start all over I'm going to try and get "Lights at the end of the world" ready for publication next. Most likely on The website first the maybe somewhere else (Shrugs). I really had very few issues with the story but I have a few thoughts. The first 1/4 of the story before Ana's demise did not truly grab me. I am personally unsure if this is just a me thing or a true issue so I'm leaving that as a gut reaction. I think part of that was because Abel did not really come into his own until after that point. Which is almost an issue in of itself but you avoided the "Woman in refrigerators" Trope because I really felt Ana was a character with drive and agency before her death. She also effected Abel before she died which helped. I was a little sad because a "what if Ana did not die" story would be fascinating to see and equally as destructive I think. The look out that saw the murder said they saw Ana being Raped which felt like a detail from a previous draft that got left in. The two bodies found outside the ranch before the gun battle felt odd. That a moonshiner and a governor to be would be going to the ranch together seemed weird. Incidentally I really liked the gun battle itself and the confrontation with his brothers. It was very anti action movie which felt right. I also really liked how much of a let down Abel's father was he was just a pathetic old man getting blown away off screen. That felt very "No Country for Old Men" to me and it was just the right kind of bleak. Estaban was great as I said and Abel by the end came together I will say their final talk was a little to... staged? I don't know it did not feel right. But the ending was just right with Esteban riding off away from the ranch and the life it lead him to. Both Abel and Esteban were just kind of obsessive enough about Ana to feel slightly unhealthy but not fake. It made the motivation stick and work really well. Those are my current thoughts that I am vomiting up atm. I'll give it some more thought and get back to you if I think of more. Over all great work man |
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Post by justin1023 on Mar 5, 2017 20:12:15 GMT
Thanks man now to start all over I'm going to try and get "Lights at the end of the world" ready for publication next. Most likely on The website first the maybe somewhere else (Shrugs). I really had very few issues with the story but I have a few thoughts. The first 1/4 of the story before Ana's demise did not truly grab me. I am personally unsure if this is just a me thing or a true issue so I'm leaving that as a gut reaction. I think part of that was because Abel did not really come into his own until after that point. Which is almost an issue in of itself but you avoided the "Woman in refrigerators" Trope because I really felt Ana was a character with drive and agency before her death. She also effected Abel before she died which helped. I was a little sad because a "what if Ana did not die" story would be fascinating to see and equally as destructive I think. The look out that saw the murder said they saw Ana being Raped which felt like a detail from a previous draft that got left in. The two bodies found outside the ranch before the gun battle felt odd. That a moonshiner and a governor to be would be going to the ranch together seemed weird. Incidentally I really liked the gun battle itself and the confrontation with his brothers. It was very anti action movie which felt right. I also really liked how much of a let down Abel's father was he was just a pathetic old man getting blown away off screen. That felt very "No Country for Old Men" to me and it was just the right kind of bleak. Estaban was great as I said and Abel by the end came together I will say their final talk was a little to... staged? I don't know it did not feel right. But the ending was just right with Esteban riding off away from the ranch and the life it lead him to. Both Abel and Esteban were just kind of obsessive enough about Ana to feel slightly unhealthy but not fake. It made the motivation stick and work really well. Those are my current thoughts that I am vomiting up atm. I'll give it some more thought and get back to you if I think of more. Over all great work man Thanks, Eliot! Good catch on the mention of the rape. That was in there, but then I decided it didn't add to the story and I didn't want to be contribute to literature with an unnecessary rape scene. It's so helpful to get your take on the first quarter of the book, even if it's just your quick gut reaction. That's the most important part of the book (from a selling the damn thing perspective), so I will revisit it. I truly appreciate you reading this whole thing and giving me feedback! |
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Post by eldercheese on Mar 5, 2017 23:32:55 GMT
Any time man to put it in perspective I read the second two thirds in less time then the first third. Also I had one question because I was unsure, before Finnegan was shot he seemed sure Abel could not kill him. Yet I thought he had just witnessed Abel killing his brothers. Is that a reflection of Finnegan ego and Delusion of power? If so you might want to tweek that a bit at least address the death of the sons maybe. But again it was great over all again great work man.
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Post by justin1023 on Mar 8, 2017 16:00:24 GMT
Any time man to put it in perspective I read the second two thirds in less time then the first third. Also I had one question because I was unsure, before Finnegan was shot he seemed sure Abel could not kill him. Yet I thought he had just witnessed Abel killing his brothers. Is that a reflection of Finnegan ego and Delusion of power? If so you might want to tweek that a bit at least address the death of the sons maybe. But again it was great over all again great work man. That's exactly it. Finnegan's ego is so large that he doesn't believe ANYONE can kill him, let alone his son—the "good" son. But yes, I totally need to tweak that to make it more clear or make it so that maybe Finnegan didn't witness the deaths. |
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Post by eldercheese on Mar 8, 2017 21:25:25 GMT
Or make it clear that he views himself as that much more important and special that he can not fathom that Abel could be driven to kill him. He fuck up sons sure but he himself? Impossible.
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