Justin's Second Submission

[justin1023]

Hey guys, 

This is the first chapter of my new novel called Once, We Were There. I'm into my second draft, so any general feedback on this opening chapter would be super helpful. I'm especially interested in your first impression of:

-Joe and Nathan's relationship
-Nathan and Sonya's relationship
-The SB1070 law I bring up - does it need more explaining or is there enough there?

Anything else you all can think of will be so great. Again, this is early stages, so it's still rough. Thanks for the help!

Attachments:

OnceWeWereThereCh1.pdf (72.53 KB)

[Charlie Allison]

Justin!

Well, I gotta say that I had a blast reading this. A couple initial thoughts:

The genre-half-twist(patent pending on the name): This short opening chapter (only ten pages) packs a lot into a little space and covers two interconnected genres (teen-rebellions and parent-teen conflicts but also segregates them). You have Nate, our protagonist, going to a party to sell some weed, and in the process gets into a fight with a man who's dating the girl he's interested in. The girl calms him down and the party is busted by the cops, which includes Nates father and goes forward to explore the main theme of this chapter: Nates similarity to his dad--the first half was just introducing us to Nate in his 'natural environment' so we can observe his characteristics and tendencies and compare them to his father's when they interact. That's where the tension of the chapter comes from, in my opinion.
Tension There is a great saying that I stumbled across at one point: "The flaws of others irk us because we share them in some way." This quote sums up the conflict that's clearly being orchestrated in the greater narrative. Nate resents his dear ol' dad enforcing SB 1070 and his dad clearly resents his son being a drug dealer.
They share characteristics and assessments of each other: 'If only you weren't so _______, you could be what I want you to be' is the unspoken bit between them.

“All right,” Dad said. “I have to go toughen up. Look the part, you know?”

“Seriously, why do you work for a piece of shit like that?”

“Language,” Dad said before he rolled out of my bed, went to the door, flipped my lights off, then looked back at me. “I’ve got to pay the bills, and the county hasn’t given me a raise in three years. It’s moonlighting down at the university for a couple bucks a night, or do this and guarantee our lights stay on.”

Not a great thing to have between people with hair-trigger tempers (Nate 'whites out' and nearly chokes Mateo to death--his father fucking DEPORTS someone who passed him and was going under the speedlimit---clearly wrath runs in the family). Keep this up, Justin--one thing I loved about that SB1070 scene was that Nate doesn't see what his father is doing exactly, but knows what's happening and doesn't like it--just as his own father must have felt as he rolled up to Nate's party (I'm not equating the two, but the structure is so well set up I felt obligated to comment on it). Things are clearly heading towards a confrontation, just not in this chapter.

Patterns: We're all creatures of patterns and Nate is no exception. Here's one pattern that I picked up in Nate's voice. Statement. Brief restatement. Clarification. Here are two examples I found (there are more of course):

I laid on that useless car wondering when I’d be something more. Not to myself. I didn’t give a shit what I was to myself. I needed to be more to Sonya. For Sonya.

But I watched what seemed to be an endless supply of blood come from Mateo’s nose. Someone behind us said I’d killed him. But I didn’t. Mateo was fine.

[/b]

I'm about 80% certain this is a deliberate choice, but if it isn't, it might be something to look at and tone down--I know he's supposed to be tripping balls while this is happening, but personally it broke up the flow of the action for me just a bit too much. I'm not saying take all of it out, just maybe one or two instances. Maybe play with the idea of run-on-sentences as a mechanic to supplement this style of writing?


That all being said--you have some great descriptive language here:

I turned my head and watched someone put their cigarette out on a cholla cactus just to get a barb stuck in their forearm. A girl in a jean skirt pulled her panties down, squatted, and pissed on the hood of Tommy Lenmeir’s car. That was as much a signal as any that is was time for me to start dishing out bags, to start collecting the cash.


Here are my line notes--they get a bit persnickety, but I really like this as an opening chapter (really, its a salvo in a war that neither father nor son understand is happening but still)



Charlies Line Notes Justins 2nd novel first....pdf (105.77 KB)

[princessdiana92]

Jul 3, 2017 12:41:38 GMT justin1023 said:

Hey guys, 

This is the first chapter of my new novel called Once, We Were There. I'm into my second draft, so any general feedback on this opening chapter would be super helpful. I'm especially interested in your first impression of:

-Joe and Nathan's relationship
-Nathan and Sonya's relationship
-The SB1070 law I bring up - does it need more explaining or is there enough there?

Anything else you all can think of will be so great. Again, this is early stages, so it's still rough. Thanks for the help!

Hey, Justin!! Glad I got to take a look at this. I immediately wanted more than just 10 pages, though. ;P

I got some serious "Where All Light Tends to Go" by David Joy vibes from this... not sure if you intended that or not, but the whole party scene and beating on the girl's boyfriend seemed like a direct link back to that scene in that book. Not a bad thing, but maybe something to watch for moving forward.

Also, I think establishing more tension between Mateo and Nathan from the beginning - mention Mateo when Nathan is first talking about Sonya and Sonya being there with her boyfriend. Make it clear that he's jealous and he's watching them. Before Mateo pouring beer in Nathan's face, we don't even understand what's going on much. I think it would be beneficial to have these little clues for the reader to hold onto. The whole "blanking out" or "whiting out" scene is intentionally confusing, I think (Nathan says it's hard to explain what happens in that moment of pure rage) but by establishing him watching Mateo and Sonya it gives a reason for Mateo to pour skunked beer on Nathan, and Nathan to react in that way. I also wasn't fully convinced that Sonya would immediately run away with him and not be trying to care for Mateo? That was all a little unclear and I'm sure you have explanations of why in your head, but just making it a little clearer to the reader would be beneficial. 

I'm getting a great sense of the relationship between Sonya and Nathan, as well as Nathan's relationship with his dad, which is definitely tense ( to put it lightly ) but I remember from reading an earlier description of this book that that's what the novel intends to be all about. The trick between sticking to one's roots or giving it all up for a girl. This chapter sets that all up seamlessly for the reader. 

I also understood the SB 1070 law well enough; I'm guessing it has to do with searching for immigration papers in Arizona. I don't think it needs more description unless that missed its mark, but I think leaving it on the edge of fully explaining was well done. 

I'm really looking forward to seeing more from this novel. It intrigues me and already only 10 pages in the characters are taking defined shape. I'm excited for more developments and seeing what trouble Nathan gets himself into.  

-Line Notes to come (having trouble saving docs on my computer at the moment). 

[Charlie Allison]

Also, I think establishing more tension between Mateo and Nathan from the beginning - mention Mateo when Nathan is first talking about Sonya and Sonya being there with her boyfriend. Make it clear that he's jealous and he's watching them. Before Mateo pouring beer in Nathan's face, we don't even understand what's going on much. I think it would be beneficial to have these little clues for the reader to hold onto. The whole "blanking out" or "whiting out" scene is intentionally confusing, I think (Nathan says it's hard to explain what happens in that moment of pure rage) but by establishing him watching Mateo and Sonya it gives a reason for Mateo to pour skunked beer on Nathan, and Nathan to react in that way. I also wasn't fully convinced that Sonya would immediately run away with him and not be trying to care for Mateo? That was all a little unclear and I'm sure you have explanations of why in your head, but just making it a little clearer to the reader would be beneficial. 

Tianna makes a great point--but I think that it's a more point if this WASN'T the first chapter of a novel. Mateo would be a great thing to build up the tension--if the scope was limited to the party, Sonya, and Nate and didn't extend to SB1070 and the father-son dynamic. Just for my part, I think Mateo coming out of nowhere is a good idea--remember, Nate isn't a teetotaller, he's high as a kite so introducing Mateo too early just throws the timeline out of whack. Short version-- Nate is high, not looking for trouble, and Mateo picks a fight with him--and this gives Nate a chance to demonstrate his temper issues and opens up a parallel with his father. Provoking the fight early disrupts that picture and to me, would interfere with drawing the parallell Justin wants us to make with his cop dad. Both WAY over-react to being wronged, at the very least.
And i'm not sure Mateo needs a reason to do what he does--he's there to be a dickwaffle.
As for Sonya--I'm not sure about her rapid movement to Nate. But I don't think it breaks suspension of disbelief or anything.
Thoughts?

[Julia]

You’ve got a lot of great ideas here and a lot of potential conflicts. I’m interested in what will happen to Nathan. He’s troubled but has some strong principles. He and his father are at odds, but obviously care for each other. His drug dealing seems destined to collide with Joe’s profession.

I think you cover too much too quickly. You could spend the whole chapter on just the party and end it with his father showing up. Really dwell on the sights, smells, and sounds and get us in Nathan’s mind. The descriptions of the girl squatting on the car hood and mesquite bean pods on Mateo’s jeans set the time and place so beautifully.

-Joe and Nathan's relationship – I like the complexity of their relationship. It’s not just a standard teenager resenting and villainizing his father. Nathan is aware of some of the reasons his father acts this way. He knows he cost his father some favors when the cops called him to bust the party. Joe is compassionate towards his son and trying to get him to graduation. He’s not an ogre, even if he does morally dubious things.

-Nathan and Sonya's relationship – The setup felt a little YA fiction to me. “But I also wanted to forget that she was there with her boyfriend.” Nathan pines to be with her and Sonya is nice to him, even though her boyfriend is a jerk. Her reaction to Mateo’s behavior was very flat: “He pulled you off that car, poured beer on you for no reason.” I didn’t get a sense of who she was, apart from Nathan’s dream girl who takes care of him and understands his mother’s history.

-The SB1070 law I bring up - For me, it feels like too much explanation, like it’s for the benefit of the reader, rather than Nathan’s natural thoughts. I would cut the paragraphs beginning “That fucking law…” and “Jesus, we were there that fast…” It’s obvious from his father’s speaking Spanish, and then the scene with Border Patrol what happened. I might actually cut the “Hitting him with the SB 1070?” and replace with something more subtle like “What’s it this time, Dad? Broken taillight or upside down registration sticker?” I assume this type of discrimination will be a plot point throughout the book, so I don’t think you need to put too much in right away.

Can't wait to see where this goes!

[justin1023]

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for all the feedback! I'm super excited to be working on revisions to this new novel, and your feedback is so so so helpful.

Charlie - Good catch on Nate's repetitive language. It was not intentional, actually. But I kind of like it. I will definitely play with alternatives like you said, though. I want to see how it looks both ways. And man, this novel, shifts genres just about every turn, but in the end, I'd say the overarching genre would be crime fiction. You'll see....

Tianna - I totally ripped off the feel of Where All Light Tends to Go for the opening, but I promise it changes as the book goes on I'm hesitant to put more tension between Nate and Mateo in the opening chapter because that is an ongoing plot point that's explored a lot through the book. Tons of time to expand on their tension. Plus, Julia thought there was actually too much going on in the first chapter. So, I kind of have to balance both thoughts. I'm hoping Sonya's reaction and tending to Nate immediately makes a lot more sense as the book goes on. That's another one where Nate and Sonya have a long history and the backstory is explored through the rest of the book. But I definitely need her reaction(s) to feel real, so thank you for pointing this out.

Julia - I like your idea that too much happens in the first chapter. I'm not how much I can/should cut, but I'm definitely interested in playing with that based on your feedback. You mention the setup of Nate and Sonya's relationship was a little YA. I think I'm OK with that because of how intense and dark the rest of the book gets. I kind of want that to be the safe zone, you know? But it's worth me looking closer at. And damn, thank you so much for your suggestions on the SB1070 thing. Your examples are perfect, so much more subtle. I was too close to it as I wrote that interaction, so I couldn't come up with logical realistic conversation points. But you nailed them.

Thanks again everyone!

[abi]

Jul 3, 2017 12:41:38 GMT justin1023 said:

Hey guys, 

This is the first chapter of my new novel called Once, We Were There. I'm into my second draft, so any general feedback on this opening chapter would be super helpful. I'm especially interested in your first impression of:

-Joe and Nathan's relationship
-Nathan and Sonya's relationship
-The SB1070 law I bring up - does it need more explaining or is there enough there?

Anything else you all can think of will be so great. Again, this is early stages, so it's still rough. Thanks for the help!

I am so so late on this one. I apologize, Justin.

There are so many things that work well for this story; for example, the setting, the characters, the dialog, the tension. It has the typical hallmarks for a Justin story. Desert setting, tough guy narrator who has some good in him but has gotten into some shady situations. And all of these elements come together for a pretty well rounded story. So, I'm going to get into straight into.

Joe and Nathan's relationship:

we've just begun to scratch the surface with these two. I assume, since this is a longer piece, that more will be explained later. But the main issue at hand is the question of why he's become so disillusioned with his father. As it stands now, the main reason seems to be his relationship with Sonya. Which is fine, but I think eventually we need to see a deeper explanation for that.


I want to pause to talk about Nathan's anger issues. It's explained that this is the same sort of problem his mom had, and I assume we will be getting more about his mom later on as well. But there's an issue with Nathan going from 0 to 10 in his fit of anger so quickly. Tianna mentioned adding signs of it earlier on, which I understand Justin is leery about. But there needs to be a believable motive for someone to become so angry, to the point of not being conscious of his actions, so quickly. And just having smelly beer poured on you does not make for a fit of rage to the point where people are worried that you may have killed the other person (Even granted that these are kids who are probably exaggerating). My point here is if Nathan is going to be a character who flies of the handle for no reason, we need to see that in his personality. But he seems pretty rational at the start of the story, even high on drugs as he is. So then, there needs to be a more apparent reason for him to fly off the handle. Maybe it's as simple as the fact that he actually sees Mateo's laughing face after he pours the beer, and he’s the type of person who can’t stand to be disrespected. Otherwise, it's just not quite reasonable that he would lose control over beer in his face. I could see him being angry, yes. But as an armature drug dealer and the kid of a police officer, he must have seen and experienced worse things, I would think.

I’m harping on this thing now because I’m assuming Nathan’s anger issues will continue to cause problems later on, and they need to be set up in the beginning in a way that the reader will believe so that the rest of the freak-outs will be just as believable. There are cases of certain types of people who have unexplainable fits of rage, but I think that’s a medical condition that Justin would need to do some research into.

Nathan and Sonya’s relationship:

I think it was good move on Justin’s part to have these two interested in one another but also kind of separated in the way they get to live their lives. It’s very Romeo and Juliet when you think about it. Nathan is from the privileged white American side, and Sonya is from Hispanic possibly immigrant? side. There’s a lot of potential for more conflict and resolution for these two later on, and I like what Justin’s done with them so far.


The SB1070 Law:

I had no issues with how it was laid out in this story. At first, I was like, “what’s that?” but it was explained in context. The only thing I would caution towards would be the dangers of having this story fall too much into a “social movement,” type thing where it becomes all about the corruption of the police and injustices of the immigrants who are deported for no reason. So I would be careful about how much you refer to the SB1070, and just let the story run into those issues and difficulties in an organic way.


Alright, alright, those were my only issues with this story. I think it’s a great piece, some solid work, as per usual. The dialog is great, I like all of the characters and I can see the potential here for growth and more conflict/tension later on. I’m excited to read the rest of it!

Sorry again for how late this is.

APs Line Notes for OnceWeWereThereCh1.pdf (95.91 KB)